No. 4. >> Thank you. And I would like to follow up with another question. As you have been describing Luther's concept of the two realms of God's activity, I'm remembering Dr. Rast's course on the history of the Protestant church in America. Am I correct in thinking that the mixing of the two realms is connected to Calvinism in the United States? Are Kennedy and Dobson leaning toward Calvinism and the concept of thee okay see? >>DR. JOEL D. BIERMANN: You're right on the money, Eric. Exactly right. The influence of Calvinism is very strong in this country. Of course, pure Calvinism as I'm sure you'll learn is rather rare. I mean, real full-blown double predestination no free will Calvinism is very rare in our country today. We have more of a blend of some elements of Calvinism and a lot of elements of Arminianism coming into what is called Evangelicalism. But what is common is this confusion of the two realms. And this was something already that Calvin was pushing toward. He saw the church's responsibility to establish God's kingdom here in this world. And you even see this beginning in Calvin's Geneva. Where he wanted to establish the ideal city state based on the law of God. Sort of like what you'll hear from contemporary Muslims who want to have ***shiera operating. This is -- the law of the land is ***alosla. And that's the ideal. So they want no distinct between the left and the right. It's all together one thing. Simply God's activity. Calvin saw it the same way. That we want to have God's kingdom here in this world. If you learned about your millennial eras, postmillennialism taught the same idea. And this is, again, not very common anymore. But at the turn of the century, a century ago, early 1900s, that was really strong. The idea that we're establishing God's kingdom here in this world. Things are getting better and better and better. So the activity of God in the world and the activity of God in the church are the same. They saw a blending together. And still that same thing is going on. And I think that's a lot of what is driving the kind of Dobson-Kennedy sort of talk about God's chosen land and the Christian America. Now, this will sound very strange to you. But this is very important. The goal that I would have as a Lutheran is not a Christian America. I don't want a Christian America. That's not -- I do not believe that's God's goal. I do believe the goal is every man and woman in the world hears the Gospel and becomes part of God's kingdom. That is the goal. But that's not the same thing as a Christian America. What I want is a just, upright America. I want an America that is upholding God's law and following God's law. What we'll talk about later is the natural law. We'll get into that probably I think a little bit. But that's what I'm looking for. And that's not the same as a Christian America. So I don't want to have a triumvirate of Christians somehow ruling. See this also tells you that you're not necessarily a better ruler just because you're a Christian. If I have a choice between two candidates, one who is an outspoken born again Christian but who has no experience leading and is really kind of a buffoon when it comes to his ideas on running the country and I've got a very just, sharp, fair, morally upright pagan, I'll vote for the pagan. Because he's going to be a better leader in the left hand realm and accomplish God's purposes in the left hand realm. Whereas the guy who is morally upright and a Christian believer who has no experience and maybe is a bad leader, he shouldn't be the leader just because he's Christian. There's two different things going on here. And we need to keep the distinction straight.